At the “Jesus in the Quran” Conference held at Christ the Rock Community Church (CTR) this past August, a series of ideas were taught to a number of young people considering the mission field; some staff at CTR; and a number of people interested in ministering to Muslims who attend a variety of churches here in the Fox Valley and surrounding area. These ideas are highly controversial at best. After much research I found that the Emergent Church and some larger Evangelical Churches have been embracing these ideas for the past few years. Locally, for the past two years, CTR has been involved with ministers teaching similar concepts to the “Jesus in the Quran” movement. Janet Lenz, Saharawi Director at CTR, has plans to have the “Jesus in the Quran” people join them on their next trip to Africa this November.
In 2007 the Lord had spoken to me about “pigeonholing” Christianity with Islam and how leaders in the Church would begin to do this by breaking down the line of demarcation between the two belief systems. He said that He hated this. He then, this July, told me to post this prophecy publicly so I did so on my Shouts of Joy Ministries Facebook Group. It was in mid August that a long time member of CTR contacted me and informed me that CTR was in fact hosting a conference similar to the one that some members had previously attended in Minnesota. There were concerns and questions posed regarding what was taught so this member began to research the “Jesus in the Quran” / “Common Ground” information. Shortly thereafter she found the prophecy titled “Christianity and Islam” on the Facebook Group and contacted me. After attending the conference at CTR herself she gave me an audio recording of the entire event.
We have taken a number of points that were taught in this particular conference and listed them below in short form for those who do not like to read lengthy articles. We have posted the full version below this article for those who want a more in depth look. One is the summary of the unbiblical points found in the “Jesus in the Quran” conference, with audio clips from the conference at CTR so that you can hear for yourself what was actually said in context, including multiple audio quotes for each point. Included is what the CTR leaders are saying about the conference. Another is an article written by Douglas Pirkey that is a theological refutation of elements of C5 Contextualization as taught at the “Jesus in the Quran” Conference.
Unbiblical Ideas Taught at the CTR “Jesus in the Quran” Conference in August 2009:
- Muslims don’t need to become Christians (or even leave Islam), nor should we ask them to. They can remain Muslims and simply “discover Jesus” in Islam. We should not convert Muslims. God wants people to “remain” in their current religious context.
- The Kingdom of God is not uniquely Christian (or even covenantal as in God’s fulfillment of his covenant with the Jews), but equally draws from various faiths: Christian, Muslim, etc.
- Muslims who have “discovered Jesus within Islam,” since they are encouraged to remain Muslim, can continue to hold to the Muslim profession of faith, the Shahada, which says, “There is no God but Allah and Mohammad is God’s prophet.” (This in spite of the fact that Mohammed’s “revelation” of Jesus included the denial of His divinity, death, burial and resurrection.)
- The Quran is a holy book which these believers should continue to look to, along with the Bible, in order to “discover this Jesus.”
- Mohammed may be, in fact, a true prophet of God (some think he is and some think he isn’t) and it is up to each conference participant to decide. Participants at the conference were encouraged to prayerfully consider if, in fact, Mohammad was a true prophet after all. Quotes in the workbook handed out specifically state that Mohammad is in fact a prophet.
The following Sunday after hearing this heretical teaching, Pastor Bill Lenz made this comment,
“…the training was just absolutely excellent.”
Listen to this comment in its entire context here:
After hearing Bill’s comment about the teaching I was shocked. How could he, a man of God who believes in the orthodox tenets of the faith, hear this pigeonholing of the gospel and say that it was excellent? How can the elders of CTR defend this teaching, much less allow it to be used in their mission work? They are accountable for this and so I am assuming have heard it and have either disagreed and remained silent or have taken it in without checking it with biblical teaching and are supporting it. Either way their reactions are not biblical. Like Paul does in the second book of Timothy and in Galatians, those promoting false teaching need to be publicly spoken to, the heresy addressed, and the ones following it prayed for and gently instructed.
As this issue develops in the Fox Valley and God has His way in cleaning up the Church before He brings an outpouring of His Spirit, let us not forget that our enemy is the devil, not each other. We are seeking truth, obedience, the headship of Christ, and the repentance of our brothers; all of this to glorify the One who is worthy. We put before you what we believe to be true, biblical, and our responsibility as followers of Jesus Christ.
The whole article is worth reading to the very end, so please follow the link at the bottom of the post to read the rest of the article. It will be worth your time.
Amen to what is written in this article.
Got a few interesting comments via Facebook that I thought would be good to post in the blog because on FB they disappear in minutes when you have lots of friends.
Andrew Soerens
“Interesting. I hadn’t heard about the “Jesus in the Quran” movement. While I’m all about trying to preach Jesus in the cultural context, I have a hard time seeing Islam as just a culture – it’s a religion, a belief system. Jesus was pretty clear about leaving all others to follow him. I guess I’m feeling a little sad that CTR is embracing this … Read Morestuff. I have a dear friend who is planting a church through them. He’s formerly A/G. I’ll be curious to receive his thoughts on this.”
Thanks for sending the link and doing such a thorough job with your critique of this teaching.
Deborah Joy Shore
“It’s a useful distillation and commentary, Joie, et. al., and one that clearly took some work. Thank you. I believe this will prove useful to me at a later point. And I agree w/ Andrew–cultural sensitivity taken quite a few steps too far…. I am empathetic with the initial aim but not the conclusions.”
Deborah Boschman
Wow, you are RIGHT! There’s a WHOLE LOT OF SHAKING going on in my community of Brandon, Manitoba, Canada as well. God is shaking His church and our communities to get us ready. YES, I AGREE WITH YOU AND YOU ARE DOING THE RIGHT THING! I ENCOURAGE YOU IN YOUR PURSUITS AND ENDEAVORS! Bravo! I believe that the church is so darn PATHETIC in this hour. I believe that God is RAISING UP HIS WARRIORS AND HIS ARMY and He is shaking His church!
The ones who REALLY need to “come out of the closet” in this hour are the REAL CHRISTIANS. We have AUTHORITY AND POWER in the name of Jesus. Many Christians don’t even know WHO THEY ARE!
YOU MUST TELL THEM!… Read More
Jesus even told us in His Word, “Greater things than these will YOU DO in My Name.”
Joie,It would have been great if you would have been among those who present what Jesus’s real mission and ministry was.What today is actually has nothing to do with what Jesus taught!.Muslims are much closer to Jesus in following his teachigns than christians.Jesus taught believe in one God(muslims do),He taught to ablute before prayers(muslims do),he prayed in prostration(muslims do).He used to say Shalam o aliakum(Muslims say Assalam o alaiekum) while greeting some one.He never ate pork and preached against it(muslims don’t).He was circumcised(jews and muslims are).He said after me a comforter will come(which is Muhammad )by the way Muhammad’s coming is foretold in old testament as well.He foretold that he will not die but will be lifted up with illusion(People will think he is the one who died on cross)He foretold that he will actually disappear for few days.
I am surprised that so far no one has done any research on Jesus with sincerity.Jerald Dirks is an MA in divinity from Harvard,And a Ph.D in clinical psychology ,he was an ordained minsiter in methodist church but he wanted to do research and he did any way.He was shocked to find in Harvard that the christianity of today is the religion of the church by the church for the church.It has nothing to do with teachings of Jesus.He found Islam was closer to teachings of Jesus so he accepted Islam.Now I have a question for you Do you believe in God?You will say Yes.Are there not many people who have been working to corrupt the teachings of Jesus.You think Jews who couldn’t tolerate him in his life wouldnot have done anything after him to change his teachings?Would you not think for the sake of God,for the sake of truth.?
Common Grounder’s teach that any man like Muhammad, not despite his beliefs but because of them, is already in the kingdom of God!?!? I’ll respond to you, Muhammad, by quoting you and answering you below.
“…Jesus real mission and ministry was.”
The ministry of Jesus Christ is that of the Incarnate Son of God: “And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.” (John 17.5, ESV) Further proof provided by the Bible of Jesus pre-incarnate state is his participation in the creation of the world: “For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.” (Colossians 1.15, f.) Muhammad, the scope of the ministry of the Jesus you deviously describe is deceptive and artificially small. Jesus said, “…since you [the Father] have given him [Jesus] authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him. And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.” (John 17.2, f.) Remember, “For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.” (1 Timothy 2.5, f.) And if you doubt the deity of Christ: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God….And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.” (John 1.1,14)
“Jesus taught believe in one God…”
Muhammad, the Bible clearly informs the reader of the tri-unity of the Godhead, that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinctly three persons who are one and the same God. Jesus spoke of this: “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit….” (Matthew 28.19) Notice that Jesus did not say “in the ‘names’”: It was to God, “the only true God” (John 17.3) of whom Jesus spoke. How sad it must be to insist on having a god men can explain, like you seem to. Our God, the true and living God, is so great that he has to explain himself! As the Bible says, “No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father’s side, he has made him known.” (John 1.18)
“…He taught to ablute before prayers…”
Muhammad, you should use Bible references when you make your claims. The inference I’m left to draw is that you are referring to ritual washings, ablutions. To demonstrate his role of servant to his disciples, he washed their feet but Jesus did not teach his disciples to “ablute” before praying. As a matter of fact he militated against the legalities that the religious (e.g. Pharisees) sought to use for making themselves righteous.
“…he prayed in prostration…”
In fact, you are correct: “And going a little farther he fell on his face and prayed…” (Matthew 26.39)
“He never ate pork and preached against it.”
Muhammad, whether Jesus never ate pork, the Bible makes no specific reference that I’m aware of. But this is what Jesus said about food and the Jewish Law: “…it is not what goes into the mouth that defiles a person, but what comes out of the mouth; this defiles a person…. But to eat with unwashed hands does not defile anyone.” (Matthew 15.11, 20) Also, when the Apostle Peter had a vision, in the book of The Acts of the Apostles, chapter ten, the Lord showed him animals formerly unclean for Peter to eat and said to Peter and his rejection of these animals, “What God has made clean, do not call common.” (Acts 10.15) Later at Cornelius’ home (a gentile) where he was preaching the gospel Peter remarked how “God has shown me that I should not call any person common or unclean.” (v.28) Muhammad, You cannot make yourself righteous before God with strict dietary regulations.
“He was circumcised.”
Muhammad, Christ was righteous not because of what he did (or what was done to him as a baby) but because of who he was. His Christology was not functional but ontological in nature. In the epistle to the Romans much is written to underscore how circumcision (or, the Law) can never make us justified before God. Remember, “…since God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.” (Romans 3.30)
“He said after me a comforter will come (which is Muhammad) by the way Muhammad’s coming is foretold in old testament….”
Muhammad, the Comforter that Jesus announced is not Mohammad but the Holy Spirit: “But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.” (John 14.26, KJV)
“He foretold that he will not die but will be lifted up with illusion (People will think he is the one who died on cross)”
Muhammad,
This is an old lie you have believed. In its earliest form it was the Docetic Heresy. Docetism says that Jesus only seemed to be human, and God could never be in human form because all matter is evil, they thought. Its name is from the Greek word meaning “to seem” or “to appear”. But the Bible says, “By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God.” (1John 4.2) This is the heresy that the Apostle John was refuting in this epistle. The heresy was an offshoot of Gnosticism; Gnosticism has as its philosophical underpinnings Platonism. Islam is significantly platonistic.
“Jerald Dirks”
Muhammad, you have here referenced a man whose own words reveal his was not a relationship with Christ but with an ethic or an institution or a theology. Dirks belief was Dirks centered. Jerald Dirks wrote the following.
“As the years passed by, I became increasingly concerned about the loss of religiousness in American society at large. Religiousness is a living, breathing spirituality and morality within individuals, and should not be confused with religiosity which is concerned with the rites, rituals, and formalized creeds of some organized entity, e.g. the church”
Notice what dirks endorses as true religion “a living, breathing spirituality and morality within individuals….” Does that sound even remotely like the relationship of intimacy our personal Saviour describes? “And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.” (John 14.3)
Dirks continues: “…various Christian leaders and institutions were being swamped by sexual and financial scandals; and emotions justified behavior, however odious it might be. American culture was becoming a morally bankrupt institution, and I was feeling quite alone in my personal religious vigil….” His indictment is well stated and deserved but it explains, not excuses, his embrace of Islam. Dirks comes across as one leached of life by postmodernism, not as one feeling personally forsaken or abandoned by the Lord Jesus.
Dirks again: “By virtue of my seminary training and education, I knew how badly the Bible had been corrupted (and often knew exactly when, where, and why), I had no belief in any triune godhead, and I had no belief in anything more than a metaphorical ‘sonship’ of Jesus, peace be upon him.” Now, he said the above was attributable to his seminary education. Does this sound like a man born again, in whom the Spirit of God lives? No, it does not! My point is, Dirks does not come across as a man who knew Jesus personally, therefore, and likely, his “conversion” was not. READ THIS: “Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.” (1 John 4.15)
Muhammad, I’ll finish with the words with which Jesus began his ministry: “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.” (Mark 1.15)
From an email that I received this afternoon:
“I continue to grow more alarmed at CTR’s involvement in this “Common Ground” teaching. I just came across another website featuring the “Common Ground” teaching which features material from both CTR as well as “Jesus in the Quran,” the organization who did the conference at CTR in August. CTR’s posting of their work with the Saharawi people is only a video…but is listed under those who are “Advocates” of this teaching. The question becomes, “What exactly is being advocated?”
It doesn’t take much perusing to become deeply alarmed at what is on the http://www.commonpathalliance.com website. It also continues to raise alarms as to why CTR is associated with such websites and ministries (both this and “Jesus in the Quran.”) Unfortunately, what is on the website mirrors what was taught at the conference.”
I went to the web site to see what was posted there and clicked the play button of the video posted under “ADVOCATES”. It’s a piece on the Saharawi camps narrated by Janet Lenz. It causes me to wonder why so much attention is being directed at me personally from CTR and not at what they believe regarding this EXTREMELY important issue. If, as they have been saying, they were only looking into this teaching, then why are they posted on this web site as Advocates? And why not simply come to the pulpit and denounce the heretical teaching? There are articles on this web site that actually equate Jesus with Mohammad!
http://www.commonpathalliance.org/content/awareness_dialogue_burns_listen.html
I am also very curious about how the members at CTR are dealing with this issue? Why are they not outraged? Can they see the Biblical issues? Have they been taught enough of what the Bible says to be able to discern that this teaching is false? Do they care that the Gospel is being compromised? What is going on over there? Bill gets to the pulpit and proclaims the tenants of Orthodox Christianity and somehow this appeases any questions? It’s not even remotely speaking to the issue. No one is questioning CTR’s beliefs about Christianity, we are questioning if they are in fact pigeonholing Christianity with Islam. Are they taking the tenants of Islam and changing them to look like they fit with Christianity? What else could this be? And why are they refusing to answer even folks in their own church?
I have many questions birthed out of a deeply concerned heart, both for the members at CTR and the Muslim they “minister” to. Time to pray.
Joie
You ask how the people at CTR are doing and where is the outrage? I am one of “those” people who were not invited to the conference, but found out about it. Being a member of a large church, who doesn’t have access to the leadership (attend, pay my tithe, help out with special events on occasion) I am sick, distracted, almost to the point where it is affecting my job performance. Frankly, it took days to sink in that the Pastors and Elders of my church could be involved with such a thing. I was in disbelief and had to do much research and BIBLE study. I am hurt and wounded. I don’t know how to proceed. I know I have to leave the church, but don’t know where else I and my family are to attend. I don’t know that God is calling me to take a stand at this point. We need a heartfelt pulpit response of repentance. not “we were wrong to have common ground here. It was a mistake.” That would just be adding insult. Scripture is clear that we are to run from those who preach a different gospel. The scary thing is they almost had me convinced.
There are many Godly people at CTR and I am sure denial is a powerful coping mechanism for them at his point. But if they really listen to all the facts, read all the literature, Study the Word, they will realize that even if 10% of what you are saying is true, CTR is in deep trouble. This is not going to “go away.” May God have mercy on us as a church, and forgive us all. May God restore CTR, HIS CHURCH, to be in a position that is once again honoring to HIM. Are we as a body going to be “truth seekers” or “loyalists?” Time will tell. These last several weeks I have attended church, waiting, needing a response. None has come. I have been hoping area Pastors would intervene and help those of us who find ourselves in this difficult position. I am truly disturbed, hurt, and seeking God in all of this. Until then, I am staying away from CTR and all other churches for the moment. I speak only for myself. To answer your question, that is one member of CTR is coping.
By the way, Allah is not Yahweh. You cannot pray to both. It is like being a Christian atheist. I am ashamed to admit I almost got “sucked in.”
Dazed and confused, have you brought this to the leadership at CTR? Have you asked them to clarify? Scripture tells us that if we have aught with someone, to take it to them directly, one on one. If you haven’t, then do it. I’m sure a lot of the confusion will leave.
I really do not feel like being argumentive or discredited by them. We would just “agree to disagree” I think, and that would anger me. I would not be the first bringing this can of worms to the attention of leadership. I would rather leave quietly. If the leaders have nothing to hide, surely they will make the tape of the conference available, even if for sale. (It is not too late.) I suppose the “body wasn’t mature enough to handle the message” of the conference. The evidence and letters alone on this blog are enough to convince me that something is amiss, even if it might not be 100% accurate.
“Allah is not Yahweh”. Did you know that long before Mohammed was born, Arab Christians called God “Allah”? Arab Christians today call Him Allah – it is the Arabic word for God. That’s what they called God while our European ancestors were worshiping trees. Unlike the English word for God, derived from a Germanic pagan god, it actually comes from same roots as Elohim. It’s extreme statements like that which make serious discussion difficult!
Jim, “theos” is the transliteration of the Greek word translated “God” in Matthew 4.7 where Jesus is speaking. The origin of our English word is irrelevant to this discussion. This matter is not merely one of semantics, for if it were, the same people who claim to be biblical in their C5 approach to missionary work who pray to Allah would be biblical in what they say the God of the Bible says. For example, people you seem to be defending say, “…we’re not interested in any Muslim converting to Christianity because that wasn’t Jesus’ way and it was an old message.” To the contrary, the Bible says “unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God” (John 3.3). There seems to be a definite connection between people who say they are Christians and pray to Allah and the notion that the names “God” and “Allah” are interchangeable. Heresy is the descriptor for this connection. The issue is the following: Christianity is being pigeonholed with Islam.
actually, allah was a pagan moon god (not christian) long before it was associated with Islam.
To dazed and confused,
Don’t loose hope! God is at work. He is cleaning up the Church to restore it! He doesn’t just confront us and leave us like we are such unbearable children that He cannot look at us again. Just the opposite, when we turn from our sin, come out of the “pig pit” and turn to come home that Father is waiting for that Prodigal Son! It’s the only time in the Bible we hear that God runs! He runs to us when we return. Now of course that includes leaders as well. Often we see in the Bible where God chastises those He loves and especially leaders. He will take it all away to get us where we need to be. (See the rich young ruler).
That has been why the Lord has given the prophecy. He wants folks like you to see that His hand has been in this from the beginning and He wants us all to run to Him not away. We can trust in HIM. He is worthy of going forward even when things look crazy. Yes, the CTR leadership is in sin and yes, God is dealing with them as He has dealt with the Church this way since the beginning. CTR may even cease to exist but God is still working His way through the Fox Valley. The effects of the “Dark Night” began with the closing of Kingsway and will end with the splitting CTR. And then God will bring an outpouring of His Spirit that we have not seen in this area before.
As bizarre as this may seem to you “dazed and confused”, you can contact me if you want via joiepirkey@shoutsofjoyministries.com and I can answer questions and pray with you.
That being said just as throughout the Bible when God shows up and cleans house it is not time to run away from Him, but as you have said, repent and run to Him.
Ministers in the Valley are aware of this situation, many are hoping that Pastor Tim Snell continues with his efforts to call the leaders at CTR to repentance, and to make the Church aware, many are sitting back waiting to see how people respond seemingly in a political way, and some are joining with the leadership at CTR making efforts to hide what has taken place and legitimize their behavior and in effect this teaching.
I can see that this is an emotional issue but emotions and investigative truth don’t usually go hand in hand.For the people who read Bible carefully a different message comes up.
Jesus said to Jews,Oh Israel your Lord and my Lord is one true God.But christians follow trinity a word not even mentioned in Bible although Jesus taught everything in public,nothing in secret.He never taught trinity.
Jesus said I have come to none but the lost children of Israel.He said go not to gentile but Jews.Yet christians are afraid to go to Israel to preach the message of Jesus but are out to poor countries in Africa,Asia and Latin America and preach to everyone except Jews.
Jesus said I have come to revive the law,(i.e.teachings of Moses).But chrisitans do a lot of lip service to Jesus but don’t follow the law.e.g.The law is don’t eat pork,but there is none which doesn’t eat pork.Similarly many other points are ignored.
Jesus said in advance in John 3:14 that “just as serpent was lifted by Moses so shall ‘son of man’ will be lifted up”,now what does this means,it refers to illusion of stick turning into snake while actually it is stick.So Jesus was picked up alive to the heaven and he didn’t die on cross.
Similarly Jesus says about sign of Jonah,when Jews pressed him for a miracle he says “You an adulterous nation you will get no sign but the sign of Jonah,i.e.just like Jonah was 3 days and 3 nights in the belly of huge fish so will the son of man be in the chest of earth.It clearly means as Jonah was alive so will Jesus be alive and NOT DIE.So no dying and therefore no resurrection.Here I will not like point out that actually Jesus(or someone looking like him) was One day and two nights on cross not 3 days 3 nights.Quran says very clearly that Jesus didn’t die but was made to look to the onlookers while actually it was someone else who died.
Jesus said a comforter will come when I leave and for him to come I have to leave,this comforter is said in original greek bible as well,the word there is “paraclitos”.This comforter is Prophet Muhammad.The coming of Muhammad is also mentioned in old testament Deutronomy 18:18.Now some of my christian brothers say this comforter is “Holy spirit” But dear brothers and sisters this holy spirit was present even at the time of Jesus so why would he talk about someone who is present then.?
In bible if you read what Jesus has said(red letters) you can divide it into two columns,one clear and unambigous and other unclear and ambigous.Now the ambigous we have many reasons to believe that can be interpreted in many ways because first Jesus spoke in parables because Jews were persecuting him and chasing him or hounding him.
So the clear and unamigous ones should be made as “land mark” and the ambigous ones be seen against it to remove any confusion or error.
It is this investigation that many newer movements are coming up in christianity e.g.Christian monotheism.,is another.You can google this word.More and more will come until they will see the truth i.e.What is written in Quran.Now people can say well Quran is not divine so it should be read analytically.I wouldn’t get mad I invite everyone to read it.But without doing any investigation or research is like ancient approach of rejecting anything that is differrent and so reflects intolerance.
I invite my christian brothers and sisters to watch a TV on line free,google “peacetv.tv”.Here you will see commonalities between the teahcings of Jesus and Muhammad.
YOu should also for the sake of truth see http://www.islamguide.com on the internet.
Education and knowledge never hurted anyone in the past would’nt hurt any one now either.
Dear christian visitors of this site.
salam o alaiekum(May Gods blessing and peace be upon you.,by the way this is the way Jesus used to greet others and this is the way muslims greet each other)
We are in which ever faith faith because we were born in it.Thats all.No other reason.But sadly this inheritance of faith is emotional enough to disallow any difference no matter how much factual it is., and not logical thats why there is so much intolerance and even wars world over.Even in Rawanda.But if we chose a faith based on facts and logic we will become tolerant of each other and this will be an educated approach.
This will be great if someone here in US both muslims and christians do it.Let us read each others books i.e.bible,and Quran and see for ourself,analyse and investigate.
I being a muslim in US did this on my own I studied bible but was surprised to see that there are many bibles contradicting each other then there are many discrepancies within each bible itself.Upon more study I found the bible was written about 90 years after Jesus ,every church had its own bible,today every denominaiton has its own.Jesus spoke in Aramaic but the oldest manuscript of bible is in ancient greek.Both languages are dead.,which explains why there is so much discrepancy in bible.Bible has been the property of church and was out of reach to ordinary christians.Both scribes who wrote and clergy who preached interpretted it their way and intimdated those who questioned.
For the knowledge of readers let me tell something about Quran.
Quran was written in time of Muhammad,it was memorised in his life time.It is in live language i.e.Arabic.It is therefore exactly coma by coma,full stop by full stop and word by word as it was given to Muhammad.There is lot of research on Quran.One scientist Dr.maurice Bucaille has written a book “Bible ,Quran and Science” in which he writes while there are many scores of references in Quran to modern science there is none wrong.Maurice Bucaille a frenchman later became muslim.You can buy this book from Amazon.com.
USA is a very great country it does astounding experiments in science,let us do this experiment in religion,let us all encourage each other to read Quran as well.,as muslims read bible.
As in the case of Muhammed of post number five on this blog, this man, Abdullah, of post number ten above is also considered by the Common Ground heretics of C5 Contextualization to be in the kingdom of God. (Nothing could be more unbiblical.) This heretical group also calls itself Jesus in the Koran, like the group that was hosted this past August by Christ the Rock Community Church in Menasha, Wisconsin. Abdullah comes across more expert at deception than Muhammed. Notice how he begins with a subtle attempt at discrediting this discussion, calling it emotional, implying that the content of our defense of the Gospel is irrational. Abdullah does this because there is rending truth in the power of our refutation of the lies that he and others attempt to induce. Abdullah, I’ll quote you below and speak to each element of your subterfuge.
But first, I’ve noticed that Muslims and heretics pretend to weight the validity of the Bible according to who is speaking. (This is not new: research the heretic, Marcion.) They like to appeal to Jesus’ words but at the same time render them meaningless by taking them out of context and using them to say what Muslims want Jesus’ words to say. I say pretend because really, the proselytizing Muslims like Abdullah don’t believe in the Jesus of the Bible at all. Their use of Jesus is a ploy to manipulate Christians into weighting the Bible themselves, beginning the germination of a lie, a lie that says, “All Scripture is [NOT ] breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work” (II Timothy 3.16, f.). Remember beloved of God, it was with Scripture that “the tempter” attempted to have Jesus in the wilderness commit idolatry (Matthew 4.6). Be like Jesus: respond to tempters with, “It is written….”
“He never taught trinity.”
Abdullah, would you believe in the triune God if explicitly he had? And why is the implicit acceptable to you only when you wish to infer from it a lie? (Was that too emotional?)
“When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you.” (John 16. 13-15)
Abdullah wrote, “Christians…preach to everyone but Jews.” The Bible says,
“Now those who were scattered because of the persecution that arose over Stephen travelled as far as Phoenicia and Cypress and Antioch, speaking the word to no one except Jews” (Acts 11.19).
Another biblical example is found in Galatians 2.7:
“On the contrary, when they saw that I had been entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been entrusted with the gospel to the circumcised….”
I personally have presented the gospel to Jews, and there are Christian ministries such as Jews for Jesus that are founded solely for the purpose of reaching the Jews with the gospel of Jesus Christ.
“Jesus said I have come to revive the law, (i.e. teachings of Moses).”
Abdullah, in what text did Jesus say that? One wonders why you include no Scripture reference in support of your assertion. The following is what Jesus said he came to do with the Law: “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them” (Matthew 5.17). The Law was given by the God of the Bible to make of his chosen people Israel “a kingdom of priests and a holy nation” (Exodus 19.4-6). This was an aspect of the overall progression of the covenant between the LORD and his “treasured possession” (v.5). But Israel’s ultimate purpose in the Old Covenant was fulfilled in the New Covenant in Jesus Christ. You can see this in Matthew 17.1-9. Jesus brought with him up on a mountain Peter, James, and John and was transfigured there in their presence. Appearing there with him were Moses and Elijah but only Jesus was radiant. The situation was not only a glimpse into the pre-incarnate glory of Jesus, the Son of God, but also of transition (The Expositor’s Bible Commentary, Volume 8). This was the one of whom the LORD spoke to Moses in Deuteronomy 18.18 saying, “I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers. And I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him.” On the mountain where Jesus was transfigured, a bright cloud came over them and from it came the voice of the Father saying, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased; listen to him.” Abdullah, did you hear that? The LORD said listen to Jesus, the one of whom in Deuteronomy 18 He had said, “…and he shall speak to them all that I command them.” Mohammad was not there and he was not even born until hundreds of years later. Here on this mountain is the summary of the Law and the Prophets personified in Moses and Elijah, fulfilled in Jesus Christ! The Old Covenant found its fulfillment in Christ and the New Covenant its beginning! It is the blood of Jesus Christ who is both Priest and Sacrifice that is the basis for the New Covenant, and the progression of the covenant continues. It continues today in the body of Christ, the church, which is the ambassadorship of salvation to the whole world: “But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light” (I Peter 2.9). It is not the Law you need Abdullah, it is grace: “For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace” (Romans 6.14).
Abdullah said, “Jesus said in advance…”, and he went on to attempt to deceive us about the reality of Jesus Christ’s physical death on the cross. He referred to John 3.14: “And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up…” and the very next verse, “that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.” This is not related to Moses staff in Exodus that the Lord supernaturally turned into a snake in Pharaoh’s court as Abdullah claimed. The account of the brazen serpent is found in Numbers 21.4-9. The brazen serpent was the symbol of their suffering that God made into the locus of healing. In other words, he made it necessary for Israel to trust God, the one they really were murmuring against for the remedy for what was killing them, and that took faith that elevated in their minds the Lord from the one blameworthy to the one trustworthy. Philippians 2.5-8 says the following:
“Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.”
Jesus died on the cross.
Abdullah wrote, “Similarly Jesus says about sign of Jonah ….”
Abdullah, you come across very aggressively on this point as if you are attacking something you know is vital that you wish to kill. The problem with your argument is it is poor. What Jesus is saying is what those of Jewish tradition would have understood; the combination of any part of three successive days and that is what the record of Scripture indicates. Joseph of Arimathea and Nicodemus buried Jesus’ body (John 19.38-42). The rest of the paragraph’s claims are absurd, overt attempts at deception. I speak to parts of it in my post above in number six.
Abdullah wrote, “I invite my Christian brothers and sisters….”
Abdullah, I notice you refer to “Christians” as if somehow we have something spiritual in common with you, a man who has posted nothing but attacks on our faith. We are not stupid. We see what you are doing, how you are trying to destroy the faith of Christian readers with both subtleties and overt lies. This is what you need to understand:
“Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not listen to the law? For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by a slave woman and one by a free woman. But the son of the slave was born according to the flesh, while the son of the free woman was born through promise” (Galatians 4.21-23).
Your problem, Abdullah, is not that you can’t be born again of the free woman, according to promise, according to faith in Jesus Christ; it is that you reject and even war against Christ here on this blog for all to see. May God grant you repentance.
Joie and Douglas,
I am encouraged by your boldness and conviction. There are many others including myself who have either been looking the other way(hoping someone else would speak out) or wringing our hands in frustration. This issue and movement is growing, and especially in missions-minded Christian circles and communities including my own. I believe it is a tactic by Satan to undermine the effort of the Gospel penetrating the Muslim world. It is serious and is dishonoring to God. I see that the response and attacks on you for speaking out have already been fierce. Be mindful to not be drawn into useless debates though. Thanks again for your faithful example, you are reaching far beyond your community.
Dear all christians.
I see Doug and anonymous bent on preaching gospel in the muslim world and beyond muslim world.But there is another approach to discuss christianity and Islam and even Hinduism (3 big faiths)with openness.After all we are what we were born into.I believe relgion is something that should be chosen and not inherited.So as a first step one should read books on a faith by its authors.Chosing religion will help us achieve peace and tolerance in the world.Until now all kind of unreligious approach has been taken to impose faith e.g.whole continent of north,central and south America,Australia,Newziland,and south Africa was non christian but first came plunderers who killed every male local they saw, raped the women and then came clergy with bible in their one hand and bread in other hand saying,Jesus loves you,he died for your sins accept him your saviour and you enter in eternal kingdom.This is an art now.Create famine,disease,death and then go there with bible in the hand.Is it christian?Would this make Jesus proud.?In India proselytisation is banned,because the clergies opened hospital where they play tricks day and night.First a christian nurse will give a pill and say take in the name of your bhagwan or Allah and it wouldn’t work because this is a placebo and not real medicine and then will give a real medicine and say take it in the name of Jesus and now it will work because it is not placebo and she will say “See,Jesus is bigger God ,accept him”Imagine this pettiness.
I think there is need to ban proselytisation.In Islam as I have read and seen they don’t believe in proselytisation.One muslim showed me written in Quran that there is no coercion in religion.And in other place is written “if We(God) wanted we would have made every one muslim but we want people to strive over each other and prove who is better in belief and deeds”.Also God guides whom he pleases.I have never seen any muslim in India doing these dirty tricks as christian clergies do.That is the reason that Islam is spreading all over the world including India and West.People have started to see the reality and game.
Sorry I have been silent for some time. I asked Doug to keep tabs on this blog while I was away speaking about the work with the orphans in Rwanda.
So many good subjects have been brought up here and I think that Douglas has been doing a great job, but I wanted to say before I hit the sack tonight that Jesus loves you guys. He died for your personal sins so that appeasement could be made before a Just God named Yahweh. Freedom from sin can be had by you. He is waiting. We are not struggling to move you from one religion to another, on the contrary, we are offering you LIVING WATER! We are calling you to repent from your sins and except the only way to the Creator of the universe, the One True God! With all of your rhetoric posted above (by the Muslims), I can’t help but find myself wondering how you can live without knowing Him. Don’t you miss Him? He created you, He knows you, He wants you. He loves you. “Come all you who are weary and He will give you rest.” May God touch your heart tonight.
Joie,there are few interesting points you mentioned worth discussion.
You don’t want to convert others yet you are firm in belief that others need guidance without you even have studied their religion e.g Islam.This is the mentality that it “is white mans’ burden” to help others.Belive me it is because of this mentality that world has become a place of wars,deception,killing and looting all with the same thinking,because the arrogants deny others their right to live as they like.So please invite others to your faith only if you have studied their faith to be able to talk with them with reasoning and logic.,and not with arrogance.
One example is that you say you invite others to “One true God” yet you believe in triune God.You say his name is “Yehweh”.Looks like you haven’t read the bible.
When Jesus was about to be put on cross.He was begging to be spared and was praying so hard that blood came out as big drops of sweat.Then what he said was.”Eloi,Eloi, Lama sabacha tha naee”In every bible meaning of all translations this sentence is written in Aramaic.He said Eloi,Eloi, this is the name he used to call God.Does it sound like Yehweh,Yehweh,or God God or Dios DIos or jehovah Jehovah.No it is Eloi,Eloi which is closer to Allah Allah.Muslims do worship One True God the God Jesus worshipped.,Muhammad worshipped.
Knowledge esp true knowledge will always be beneficial for people who seek truth with impartiality and humility.Islam is the true faith which practically believes in worhsipping One true God,no sons,no partners.Quran is the only book that is unchanged today,it has the same text written right next to all the different translations.Muhammad is the prophet that God mentioned in all the previous books e.g.Bible,Vedas,Budhist scriptures,Parsi(Zartisht)scriptures.
You can visit http://www.islamguide.com ,this small booklet can give you enough basic knowledge.This is written by many Americans who became muslim so its’english is easy.Also if you like to watch Islamic TV google “watch Peace TV on Line”.Knowledge hurted anyone in the past it wouldn’t hurt anyone now or in the future but true knowledge from authentic sources.
It is widely held, under rabbinic tradition, that referencing a the first passage of a part of the Bible was to refer the hearer/reader to that book. Jesus is referencing Psalm 22, which would render your point David’s name for God not Jesus’.
I am extremely disappointed at your poor attempt to slander CTR’s leadership. I was attending church during Pastor Bill’s explaination of the church’s training session regarding Commonground. After you conviently cut off the audio clip where he explains that the training session was excellent, he went on to say that CTR leadership did not agree with C4 and C5 Contextualization. In addition, he reread our statement of beliefs.
Deuteronomy 18:20-22 (New International Version)
20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death.”
21 You may say to yourselves, “How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD ?” 22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.
To Upset Reader…
I listened to Bill as well and didn’t hear him say what you are claiming. But maybe I’m remembering wrong. In the end though, any “claim” that CTR doesn’t agree with C4 and C5 contextualization is demonstratably false due to Bill’s and CTR’s long term relationship with C5 proponents that continue even today. This includes CTR’s relationship with Common Ground, Jesus in the Quran, and Common Path Alliance. All are C5.
Upset by the Enemy is right here. The issue is manifesting locally, but the battle is spiritual. That is why we are all called as believers to raise our voice against what amounts to nothing other than a doctrine of demons! I hope to see and hear CTR denounce this teaching and break all ties with groups promoting C5.
If anyone wants to be upset with ANYONE, be upset with the enemy. Here are a few scriptures references that speak about how God feels about the worship of other gods:
Ex 20: 3, 4; Number 25: 1-3; Deu 4: 23-25; Deu 5: 7-10; Deu 6:14,15; Deu 7: 2-6; Deu 7: 16; Deu 7: 25, 26; Deu 11: 16; Deu 12: 3,4; Deu 12: 29-32; Deu 13: 1-3; Deu 13: 6-11; Deu 17: 2-5; Deu 32: 15-21.
The Jesus in the Quran seminar clearly teaches that allah of the quran is the same as Jehovah God in the Bible. If Satan can get you to believe this, you will in effect be worshipping another god (whether you realize it or not). This is heresy. This is blasphemous. This is a lie. Allah says he has NO SON, Jehovah God claims He has a Son and no one comes to Him except through His Son.
This is not about CTR, Joie Perkey, Bill Lenz or even Jesus in the quran. This is about the enemy conditioning Christians to believe that there are so many similarities between Islam and Christianity. So they encourage the idea of concentrating on the similarities not the differences.
Things are changing at such a rapid rate. Our government is changing, our Christian churches are changing….mark my words, the day will come very soon when speaking out against Islamic teachings and standing up for Jesus Christ as the Son of God will be considered a hate crime for which we will be persecuted. Christians please wake up and stand up for the truth of God’s word. I have already discussed with my own children that the day may come very soon when they may have to make a potentially fatal decision (physically). Do I deny Christ or do I die? I wish this were far-fetched, but sadly I don’t think it is and I think it is much sooner than any of us think. Those who are confused, may I urge you to ask the Holy Spirit to reveal to you truth? James 1:5 says “If you need wisdom, if you want to know what God wants you to do, ask Him and He will gladly tell you, He will not resent your asking.” Verse 6 goes on to say, “But when you ask Him, be sure that you really expect Him to answer, for a doubtful mind is an unsettled as a wave of the sea that is driven and tossed by the wind.” If the Holy Spirit reveals to you that this teaching is wrong, are you prepared for that???
Upset, as much as I appreciate your words about the heresy that was taught in the Jesus in the Koran conference, the conference had a host and that host was a church. That church, by hosting this, abandoned the Lord and, in doing so, served, not Christ, but Satan. It is not only THE enemy that must be opposed but also those who cooperate with him: Bill and Janet Lenz and the leadership of CTR. For example, in Numbers 25.1-4 the LORD addressed, not Satan, but the leaders of the people who had led the people into idolatry, the worship of another god. The LORD said, “Take all the chiefs of the people and hang them in the sun before the LORD, that the fierce anger of the LORD may turn away from Israel.” It was Israel, especially its leadership, at whom the LORD was angry, not just “upset” as you put it. Was the LORD extreme in his direction? Yes, because it was this people he had called to be priests and a holy nation ultimately for the purpose of salvation, a New Covenant in the blood of Jesus, the one about whose identity CTR is spreading falsehood and idolatry around the world. Remember, this is crucial, “Who is it that overcomes the world except the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?” (1 John 5.5). Bill and Janet Lenz have engaged in the dissemination of a heresy that teaches that Jesus is not the Son of God, that relegates Him to the status of prophet on a par with Muhammed, the so called prophet! This must be opposed. Do not defend it.
What surprises me here is that hate blunts not only reasoning but the perception of reasoning.
Islam is the only religion which outside christianity makes it an article of faith to believe in Jesus as messiah,as a mighty prophet of God,in virgin birth by Mary,in the miracles of Jesus.We muslims treat Jesus with respect like we treat any other prophet of old and new testament.Now my question to those who call muslims as enemy is tell me another religion which treats Jesus with so much respect.Even the modern christians don’t believe in virgin birth.Now about “Son of God” the bishops in England recently issued a statement that Jesus was not divine.,meaning was only a human being.It is because of this inflexibility to accomodate truth and to see analytically that there are many christians that are walking out of christianity and others are making newer and newer organisations like”Christian monotheism”.
God saves America from the hate mongers and intolerant pastors occupying the pulpit,they want to bring this country back to what was Europe in 17th century.
Badar, do you believe Jesus is the Son of God?
Doug,
To be fair let us see what Jesus said and what bible says about Oneness of God.
IN Exodus20:4,5 is written:You shall have no other gods before me.You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below.You shall not bow down to them or worship them,for I,the Lord your God am a jealous God….”
Isiah43:10-11:Hear O Israel,The lord our god is one Lord.
Jesus never said,I am God or worship me.It will be a good excercise to show a clear and unequivocal statement showing that.
Jesus when used words for himself used “Son of man”.
So where this word “Son of God ” came in.This came in christianity after departure of Jesus just like trinity came after him which he himself never preached.Don’t forget he preached everything in public,nothing in secret.
Word “Son of God” is used for many in the bible.E.gExodus 4:22,II Samuel 7:13-14 or I chronicles 22:10.,Jeremiah 31:9 or Deutronomy 14:1.These examples tell that calling anyone son of God was only metaphorical because it is used for many and so in no way was limited only to Jesus.
When educated christians thnk on how the bible of today has gone opposite to the teaching of Jesus they either become atypical christians leading to muslims as Jerald Dirks,MA divinity at Harvard did or like Prof.Jeff Lang who became aethiesit and then muslim.
Confusion follows confusion.We have to see that in red letter bible there are either clear and unambigous statements or ambigous and unclear.The latter should be understood against the background of the former.Then the picture clears itself.
It is written…By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 1 Cor 3:10-11. Is your foundation Jesus Christ?
[…] Many people who attend CTR have also voiced this same understanding. Here is a quote from the blog from one such […]
Badar, of the post above, said, “Jesus when used words for himself used “Son of man”.
So where this word “Son of God ” came in.This came in christianity after departure of Jesus…”
But the Bible says, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy—the Son of God” (Luke 1.35). “Will be called” indicates this was said before, not after, the birth of Christ.
Badar, do you believe Jesus is the Son of God?
Doug,I wrote above that in bible there are many people who have been called as “son of God”.In bible there are sons by the tons.Even today in middle east an old man may call another man of his son’s age as “Son” but this does not mean biological son it is only metaphorical or out of love.The problem I see is that people pick up statements and then interpret it their way and reject other interpretations even if they are clear.When you read bible and read e.g.Luke,what does it say?.It says “according to Luke”.similarly according to John,or according to mark,or according to mathew.
BUT THERE IS NONE ACCORDING TO JESUS.Or is there?Then you call it “word of God”.Other examples “Jesus said I have come to revive law,never ate pork,but you eat and qoute in defence what jesus said,that what goes in is not important but what comes out.You prefer ambigous statement over clear statement.Quran calls such actions due to ‘disease in the heart”.Jesus never uttered word of trinity,yet to you trinity is the corner stone.Bible says no one will carry the burden of other but you believe Jesus died for your sins.Some even lie saying”Jesus walked to alter for sacrifice like a lamb.But when you read bible it very clearly tells that this man who looked like Jesus was begging to be spared.If he was Jesus who is begging to God for being spared how can he make you independent of sins because he paid for your sins.Do you see the picture.A man who can’t save himself how can he save others?.So called only son of God yes,begotten son of God begging to the almighty God to be spared and yet he is nailed with cross.No muslims respect Jesus and God they say it was not Jesus,someone else was made to look like Jesus and he was therefore begging to be spared and God didn’t help because of his evilness.(because he betrayed Jesus or was against Jesus)
Jesus says clearly about so called crucifixion that it didn’t happen by telling that the sign he will give will be the sign of Jonah,i.e.Just as Jonah was 3 days and 3 nights in the belly of huge fish so shall the “son of man”(Yes it is not son of God as he never used this word for himself.)be in the heart of earth.So how was Jonah in the fish.Was he alive or dead?He was alive because he was praying to be forgiven, to be relived of this ordeal.A dead man can’t pray.Jesus never died so was never resurrected.It was not crucifixion but crucifiction.
So the christianity is religion made by people after Jesus and sadly against his teachings.Very sad indeed.But worldly people happy in materialism never sacrifice convenience for truth.
Now I have a question for you.What do you find wrong with Islam or Quran?
Badar, the dance of Middle Easterners is beautiful, but the dance around Jesus and His true identity is an exercise in deception and futility.
“Now I have a question for you.What do you find wrong with Islam or Quran?” My answer to you is an article I wrote to which the following is a link: http://shoutsofjoyministries.com/contextualization/Charts_May_Change.shtml
Badar, do you believe Jesus is the Son of God?
Ok, I read some of the Quran. Here are some verses…
“Slay the idolators [non-Muslims] wherever ye find them, and take them captive, and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the last Day…. Go forth, light-armed and heavy-armed, and strive with your wealth and your lives in the way of Allah! (Sura 9:5,29,41).
Sura3 3:64: “Verily Allah has cursed the Unbelievers (whom he defined as Christians in the 5th surah “Believers, take not Jews and Christians for your friends.) and has prepared for them a Blazing Fire to dwell in forever. No protector will they find, nor savior. That Day their faces will be turned upside down in the Fire. They will say: ‘Woe to us! We should have obeyed Allah and obeyed the Messenger!’ ‘Our Lord! Give them double torment and curse them with a very great Curse!’”
They wish that you reject Faith, as they have rejected (Faith), and thus that you all become equal (like one another). So take not Auliya’ (protectors or friends) from them, till they emigrate in the Way of Allah (to Muhammad SAW). But if they turn back (from Islam), take (hold) of them and kill them wherever you find them, and take neither Auliya’ (protectors or friends) nor helpers from them. Sura 4:89
Slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush. (Sura 9:5)
8:59-60 “Let not the unbelievers think that they can get the better (of the godly): they will never frustrate (them). Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies, of God and your enemies, and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom God doth know. Whatever ye shall spend in the cause of God, shall be repaid unto you, and ye shall not be treated unjustly.”
Another translation makes this plain – “The infidels should not think that they can get away from us. Prepare against them whatever arms and weaponry you can muster so that you may terrorize them.”
9.123 “O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you”
Sura 8:12 “Remember your Lord inspired the angels with the message: “I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instill terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: you smite them above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them.”
sura 9:29 Fight against those who (1) believe not in Allah, (2) nor in the Last Day, (3) nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger (4) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islam) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
Sura 9:39 “If you do not fight, He will punish you severely, and put others in your place”
Sura 4:74: “Let those fight in the cause of Allah who sell the life of this world for the Hereafter. To him who fights in the cause of Allah, – whether he is slain or gets victory – soon shall We give him a reward of great value.”
Fight (kill) them (non-Muslims), and God will punish, (torment) them by your hands, cover them with shame. (Surah 9:14 at-Taubah 9:14)
What do you find wrong with the Quran?
Do you Muslims believe these verses to be from God? You find nothing wrong with them?
Tanya,thanks for such good work.I think there should be a debate between a christian pastor and a muslim scholar on these issues.eg,Jesus being son of God,original sin,bible being word of God,resurrection etc.etc.
Prominent scholars on both sides.
Today the people who are entering Islam are the intellectuals because they read such criticism on Quran and Islam and get stimulated to read Quran in its entirety on their own.So qouting out of context as Joi and Tanya have done from some anti Islam website actually helps increase the interest in Islam.Thank you Joie and Tanya for your posts.If you would have read Quran yourself you would have seen these are out of context.God bless you ,keep up the work.
Badar, did you read the article I linked to above?
To my christian freinds,Salam alaiekum.
Today Nove 27 to 29 are 3 days for the Abrahmic sacrifice which only muslims celeberate,though it is a bridgebuilder between three Abrahamic faiths.This is second biggest holiday and is called Eid al Adha,first biggest holiday is Eid al fitar which ends after the fasting month for muslims.,again an act of worship which was carried out by and preached by Moses,and Jesus(peace be upon them all).We muslims are proud of carrying out such acts of worship because these reflect the actions of the prophets themselves.Some muslims celebrate the birthday of Prophet Muhammad but many don’t saying he himself didn’t do it so instead of focusing on his personality worship we should rather focus on his teachings for God’s worship.
Anwar,
There is a better covenant than the Abrahamic covenant. The LORD established it in Jesus Christ: “This makes Jesus the guarantor of a better covenant. The former priests were many in number, because they were prevented by death from continuing in office, but he holds his priesthood permanently because he continues forever” (Hebrews 7.22, ff.).
The Bible teaches that the LORD has made the Abrahamic covenant obsolete: “In speaking of a new covenant he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away” (Hebrews 8.13).
Anwar, Jesus calls you to repent, for he said: “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel” (Mark 1.15). May the Holy Spirit open your heart; and may the Father draw you to the Son. God bless you, Anwar.
Doug,
I believe in Jesus for the aspect of his teachings,his doings and as a muslim like all of them I am closer to him than those who profess lip service to him and call themselves christians.Mark 1.15 that you say”repent and believe in the gospel”.In red letters,in this Jesus is telling people who were around him for his time only.After him is Quran for all mankind and all times according to him as well.Where he says ” a comforter will come when I leave, and he will speak what God will put in his mouth” This prphesy is for Prophet Muhammad only.Do you believe in him.This is clear statement of Jesus.I believe what Jesus has said himself,not what is written in Hebrews etc etc in black ink,because this is “EXPLANATION” someone is saying for Jesus not Jesus himself so in my opinion it can’t be equal to Saying of Jesus.I put Jesus above all his companions of his times.Jesus is above them.
GOd sent Abraham,he sent Moses,he sent Jesus,he sent Muhammad ,so for a muslim all these prophets and those written in QUran are equal in significance and are given equal respect.Islam is the religion of inclusion.,not of exclusion.Gospel that was given to Jesus called “Injeel” was what Jesus preached and taught,not this written in English by Mark Mathew,john and Luke.Because Jesus didn’t walk with this bible under his arms.Or did he?.
Anwar, you argue that you believe only Jesus’ words. You said, “I believe what Jesus has said himself,not what is written in Hebrews etc etc in black ink,because this is “EXPLANATION” someone is saying for Jesus not Jesus himself so in my opinion it can’t be equal to Saying of Jesus.” Anwar, please explain how Jesus’ words are credible to you, words that were written in the gospels by writers you do not find credible, for you said, “Gospel that was given to Jesus called “Injeel” was what Jesus preached and taught,not this written in English by Mark Mathew,john and Luke.Because Jesus didn’t walk with this bible under his arms.Or did he?” Anwar, are you saying that Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John were not trustworthy writers except when they wrote what Jesus said? Or are you saying that the gospel writers’ words are not equal with the gospel writers’ words for they wrote for Jesus the things Jesus said? Please explain yourself.
Doug,Let me start with some solid points.First is that There surely is one God who out of love for his creation send as mercy to different people in different times messengers and some with books for guidance so people could live peacefully and in brotherhood.The prophets he chose were people of very high character to be his representatives.Jesus is unique that he was born a virgin birth(no father).But people whom they came to didn’t like any intereference in their life style of corruption and evilness so resisted and rebelled as happened with Moses and Jesus to recall relatively recent history.Books he sent although surprisingly contain many similar statements yet most except Quran are changed by the same mischieveious and rebellious people.Divine books had to have certain criteria,for a reader to crosscheck and confirm its validity.A book from God MUST be different than one written by any man or group of men.What difference,?Discrepancy for one due to passage of time from revelation to writing and the political pressures of the time.Also there are some statements in bible that sadly can be grouped under pornographic,incest,or whoredom.Also analyse grammer,where in all books when you read,you see grammar suggesting,someone writing about someone,someone telling a story or events except Quran,it makes you feel that God is talking to you.Many people who read it say that You feel Quran is reading you instead of you reading it,e.g.when a question comes in your mind or a thought comes while reading you find a reply to it.This is what those cnverts from other faiths who became muslim.(Jews,christians,Hindus,Budhists and atheists).Quran uses the language as if it is addressing the reader of that time to now.God saying,Oh Muhammad…..,or Oh you believers…… or God is watchful of what you do and knows what is in your hearts.Quran is called living miracle of all times.
About conflicting statements in bible,there are many,if you don’t know let me know and I will write them.I don’t want to write for the sake of just criticising,no that is the least,I am a muslim and I love Jesus and I am so very careful to read the bible to make sure did he say it,or someone inserted this statement.You know there are different bibles of different sects and within one bible there are differences,something is in one edition,taken out from the later and then reinserted in newer.There are some books called “Apocrypha”.The catholics have 73 books in it while protestants have 66.Bible has been of interest to many christian scholars who puzzled with the points I wrote above did more research and concluded only to reinforce suspicion on its authenticity.
Simple point is what a non christian thinks because he starts from an impartial position esp.muslim who loves and respects Jesus(Pbuh)If Jesus was “Son of God” then it is very unique and Jesus would have very well known it because he is the only prophet to have been given this label so Bible should have repeated statements on his being “son of God” VERY CLEARLY AND UNAMBIGOUSLY.But it is not so.He never says He is God,he never says worship me.In bible you see Jesus praising God,not vice versa,you see Jesus praying to God,You see Jesus complaining to God about the actions of the people of times.You see a clear distance in the two positions.You feel the One God and his messanger,his human assistant,his human guide to the people he was sent to,(what the prophets were,peace be upon them all).
Writes J.R.Dummelow: in commentary on the holy bible,P16)”A Copyist would sometimes put in not what was in the text but what he thought to be in it”
Read this,T.G.Tucker writes on p320 in” History of the christians in the light of modern knowledge”
“The elder John used to say,Mark having become Peters interpreter,wrote down accurately whatsover he remembered.It was not,however in exact order that he related the sayings or deeds of Christ.For he neither heard the Lord nor accompanied him,but subsequently as I said ATTACHED HIMSELF TO PETER WHO USED TO FRAME HIS TEACHING TO MEET THE WANTS OF HIS HEARERES,AND NOT AS MAKING A CONNECTED NARRATIVE OF THE lORD”s DISCOURSE’
Then in “Life of Jesus”,by C.J.Cadoux pp.14-15,
But a close examination of the treatment he(Mathew)gives to his borrowings from Mark shows that HE ALLOWED HIMSELF GREAT FREEDOM IN EDITING AND EMBROIDERING HIS MATERIAL in the interest of what regarded as the rightful honouring of his master.The same tendencies are elsewhere when he is producing”Q” or providing matter peculiar to himself.
The third gospel(Luke) was written for the benfit of the most “Excellent Theophilus”supposed to be a high official of the Roman empire.But its introduction the writer Luke admitted that he was not an eye witness and his knowledge was neither inspired by God but rather supplied by supposed eyewitnesses and members of their ministry.
The fourth gospel.The speeches in fourth gospel are so DIFFERENT FROM THOSE IN THE SYNOPTICS and so like the comments of the fourth evangelist himself THAT BOTH CAN NOT BE EQUALLY RELIABLE AS RECORDS OF WHAT JESUS SAID:Literary veracity in ancient times did not forbid as it does now the assignment of fictitious speeches to historical characters:the best ancient historians made a practice of composing and assigning such speeches in this way(C.J.Cadoux:The life of Jesus,p.16)
Let us read this.
The authors of the Bible were FICTITIOUS,EITHER GENERALLY CREDITED TO,NOT DEFINITELY KNOWN,UNKNOWN,DOUBTFUL,PROBABLY COLLECTED,LIKELY COLLECTED,PROBABLY WRITTEN OR COLLECTED,MAJOR PART CREDITED TO,MAINLY BY,NOTHING KNOWN OF THE WRITER OR THE PLACE WHERE IT WAS WRITTEN,ETC,whereby their authenticity are of DOUBTFUL ORIGINS according to Revised standard version,published in NY,Glasgow,and toronto by WIlliam Collins and Sons and Co,Ltd.
What confuses me that How can people put others at the level of Jesus esp when others are contradicting Jesus as Paul.How can statements of Paul have the status of “Saying of Jesus” who was speaking on what God was revealing to him?
So in contradictory statements Jesus should have supermacy over others.Jesus came with a very clear message from One God and attempts to confuse it,muffle it,misrepresent it needs to be opposed.
Doug I am sorry if anything I said hurted you.To any muslim and myself christians are people of the book.I would recommend you to watch on http://www.bridgetofaith.com, Episode 22
an interview with Dr.Lawrence Brown,a new muslim who has done extensive research on the bible and speaks about”The Eight scroll.”and its possible impact on the present bible.
God bless you.
Anwar, does that mean you don’t believe the gospel?
I do believe that Jesus was given “Injeel”,from God in Aramaic,Quran says that also.But unfortunately what is left of Gospel today is not the same what was given,people added,altered for their political and economic greed.So though I believe that gospel contains words of God but in its entirety it is not.But when I read it I read some striking similarity with Quranso I think this statement is from God.
To a christian e-mail friend I wrote that surprisingly some statements in bible are also written in Quran and Vedas(hindu scriptures),even in Budhist scriptures and Parsi(called Zorastrians,who worship Fire and lived in Iran before Islam came e.g.there are those who look but don’t see and hear but don’t listen etc.So this gentleman wrote yes,because bible is the oldest and others copied from it.But when I wrote him that Vedas are over 4000 years old.He was surprised.Similarly there are some researchers who studied the roots of religion meaning what it is the core of it,the religions were American Indians,and Aborigins and some tribes in thick forests of Amazon who had not come in contact with the world.And surely they found that all taught there is only One God but the current practices changed a lot from original.This is written in Quran as well,God says “to every nation we send prophets with guidance,it is not our manner to punish certain people without them having recieved guidance and then not accepting and following it.”
Also I forgot something and let me ask you now.Imagine a scenario in which you are a Judge in the court and a man comes saying my father died and he left his estate to me in the will while denying my brother anything.So I deserve all of its inheritance.Then when you after discussing the case with attorney are about to assign him all inheirtance,you see another man coming who claims he is the other brother and says the first one did forgery in the documents of will and he has done additions after the death of his father because father wrote both brothers to be equal inheritors.Now what you do?Justice demands that you should even consider punishing the first brother for forgery.,for lying in the court etc.Now what do you say about Bible,that document has affected billions of humans, and will continue doing it.But bible contains the chapters about Paul who didn’t according to many researchers even see Jesus or according to one or two saw him only once.But statements of Paul are qouted equally with that of Jesus, which to me is wrong and pigeonholing the term you use,because Jesus spoke word of God while Paul and Peter were only human beings yes Peter was at least his disciple in his life.Think about it.
If religion is a serious belief system it desreves lot of impartial research before choosing.
Anwar, are you one of many antichrists: “Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son” (1 John 2.22).
Anwar, do you believe Jesus is the Son of God? Please answer simply, yes, or no.
Okay a weird thing happened this morning. I woke up and immediately began to think of all of the things that I had to do today. Buy Saint Nick gifts, prepare for the next newsletter, send out fund raising letters for the orphans in Rwanda, and bam, the Lord begins to speak to me.
I was turning over and as I did He just began to tell me, “Joie, I love Anwar.” “Who?” The man that Douglas has been writing to on the blog. Immediately I felt this love. When the Lord speaks to me about individuals I get this deep sort of love infusion that is quite different for each person. It’s like He likes different things about each of us. Some he loves seriously, some in a fun way, just different succinct attributes for each person. So I was taken aback by this love for Anwar.
I call him Paul He says. “Paul” No response. He said, tell Him to read Isaiah 6.9 so Anwar/Paul your supposed to read Isaiah 6.9 and I am supposed to tell you that it’s not corrupted.
Then He tells me that He has chosen this man. He went on to explain that He has a chosen race and that when we yield to the Spirit and lay out the Gospel those who are being called will respond. (This can take a lifetime to respond)
He also said to tell you Anwar that those who deny Him, He will deny before the Father.
He also said that He was moving in Iran and that this work of the Spirit is freaking out the Leader there.
Then it was over.
Now I love you, how weird is that? And God loves you. He sent His Son to die and and pay the dept for your sins. A sacrifice that began the new covenant, the fulfillment of the Abraham covenant. The only way into that covenant is Jesus. Doesn’t matter what your history. Or your religion or lack thereof.
God, bind the enemy that lies to this man and loose your Spirit on him which is the TRUTH. It gives me peace to know that God is after you.
Sorry, Isaiah 9.6. I am dyslexic.
Also, I found this story very interesting in light of what I posted on the 4th about Iran “He also said that He was moving in Iran and that this work of the Spirit is freaking out the Leader there.”:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,579600,00.html
Police Clash With Protesters at Iran University
Monday, December 07, 2009
Test
Odd. Some post and some wait around needing to be approved. I just found them this evening. %80 some of them. Ugh. But I’ll go through and approve them all and comment.